BigRedMachineDuckin'LikeCluckin'ChickensVille
Liveblogging BC Legislature Question Period, Mar 26/09...
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Farnsworth's up first....says Kinsella was in the center of the deal..Questions directed to deputy premier (Premier and AG not there)....no answer....Farnsworth's supplemental....Makes statement about lack of answers being 'shameful'.....
Farnsworth then says ....'We know he (Kinsellsa) worked with BC and CN Rail'.....'
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Further Supplemental from Farnsworth....reads Email exchange linking CN CEO to Mr. Kinsella.....More ducking....
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Horgan's up next.....brings up Martyn Brown....where was the Premier when all these other folks were moving in and out of inner circle....de Jong says it's all politics, no regard for independent judiciary....ha!
Horgan's supplemental....brings up MaceMan's Globe column....
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Here comes Fleming.....Brings up news releases from Kinella/Progressive calls Kinsella 'fixer'....Asks "What instructions did the Premier give to Mr. Brown re: Mr. Kinsella"...de Jong says it's before the courts
Fleming's supp....longterm concern about BCR deal being tainted.... brings up CPR, BNorthern, OmniTrax concerns re: favouritism.....then asks about linkage of Mr. Brown and Mr. Kinsella again....
(me: looks like the Dippers wants to widen the inner circle, get more 'hats' in the ring)
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Next up is Krog.....Going all in....Asking for 5 or 6 W's.....(but little in terms of specifics)....Getting personal between Krog and de Jong...
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Now Norm MacDonald....says K was lobbyist using 'apparent' direct access to MBrown...de Jong indicates that the actual BC Rail 'deal' is before the courts....
(me: Is Mr. de Jong suggesting that his government's deal is 'on trial'?)
MacDonald supplemental....goes way-wide with 'culture of corruption' accusation.....it's all de Jong all the time in response.....
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Ralston's next.....very specific questions....'What did the premier tell Martyn Brown to do re: Kinsella and BC Rail'
Ralston supplemental.....widens to what did Premier tell M.Brown re: Kinsella and Accenture!...complete and absolute NON-JUDICIAL duckage from de Jong....
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S. Simpson (goes Galloway?).....Integrity at stake....Implies the 'what did the premier know and when did he know it?' type question might be coming....oh ya, and 'what was the ROLE of the premier....?' as well as the role of others in the widening hat circle is asked...
Simpson Supp.....Premier is not under investigation.....so?
(me: leading towards?....maybe Mr. de Jong is actually suggesting that the premier is under investigation?....will somebody suggest that?)
Oooohhhh here is kinda/sort comes from Mr. Simpson.....Speaker won't allow it.... requests, and gets, withdrawal
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Kwan next....Integrity and trust of premier and office in question....P Kinsella was working with M Brown to assist CN in deal....'What instructions did the Premier give to M. Brown .....?'....more of the same judicial duckage from deJong.
Kwan supplemental......'What happened between Premier/Brown/Kinsella/CN Deal?' .....brings up D. McLean calling PKinsella requesting 'help' from Emails released in RailGate court earlier today.....de Jong says question inappropriate because he's defending independent judiciary.....
(me: maybe somebody should ask the reverse...ie. ask what instructions MBrown gave to the premier? ha!)
(me: Drats, question/not answer period over.....linkage to Hansard Blues to come......)
(me: And we await post-session hallway scrum(s) on Public Eye Tee Vee......)
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Here comes the Blues....All of 'em ....For The Record....
Oral Questions
ROLE OF PATRICK KINSELLA AND
PREMIER'S OFFICE IN B.C. RAIL SALE
M. Farnworth: One week ago today we learned that B.C. Rail and Mr. Kinsella released a statement saying that Mr. Kinsella had been paid $300,000 by B.C. Rail to interpret the government's core review. It wasn't credible a week ago, and it's looking like a cover-up today. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We've learned that Mr. Kinsella was hired to smooth the way for the B.C. Rail deal. He was in on the RFP. He was working the back rooms. He was at the centre of the plot to sell B.C. Rail to CN. He was working directly with top political staff in the Premier's office. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
My question is to the Deputy Premier. When will we know what Mr. Kinsella was doing, what the Premier's chief of staff was doing and what the Premier of British Columbia was doing out of their office in the sell-off of B.C. Rail? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. M. de Jong: The hon. member chooses to make allegations that derive [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. M. de Jong: The hon. member chooses to make allegations that derive directly from information and material that are squarely before proceedings at the Supreme Court of British Columbia. It is, therefore, inappropriate to answer. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: The opposition has been asking these questions of the Premier and the Attorney General for a number of weeks now, and we have failed to get any answers. It's clear today we're not going to get any answers from the Premier and the Attorney General again, and that is shameful to the people of the province of British Columbia. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We know that Mr. Kinsella was paid almost $300,000. We know that he was working for CN Rail and for B.C. Rail. I'd like to quote from an e-mail from B.C. Rail. "Progressive Holdings is Patrick Kinsella, a McLernon-retained lobbyist and Liberal backroom guy. He provided a great deal of backroom support." [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Can we get, finally, confirmation from this government that that is the real reason Mr. Kinsella was hired by B.C. Rail — because he's an insider friend of the Premier and backroom guy, and that's how this deal was put together, in the back rooms of the Premier's office. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. M. de Jong: The fact that the opposition choose to ignore a principle as important as the independence of the judiciary makes the questions no less out of order and answers no less inappropriate. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Mr. Speaker: The member has a further supplemental. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
M. Farnworth: This is about the principle of accountability in this House — of a Premier and a government who made a commitment and then broke it; of a Premier who said this would be the most accountable and open government in the history of British Columbia. What we're seeing is a sordid chain of backroom interference and backroom deals from a backroom guy friend of the Premier. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I'll read another e-mail just to drive home how important this issue is and why transparency and answers to these questions are so key. "Patrick Kinsella received a call from David McLean, who in essence told him the deal was at risk. Anything they could do now would be appreciated and, in CN's view, needed now. Kinsella is talking to Martyn for immediate support." [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
That has been the pattern of this government right from the beginning in this affair. It has been a catalogue of backroom interference by one of the Premier's closest friends, one of his closest confidants, working with his chief of staff around the sale of one of this province's Crown assets. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Yet we get no answers from this government. None. We have an Attorney General who will say one thing outside in the halls and a completely different thing inside the House. So there is a stain on this Premier's office. There is a stain on this government. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
When will this government stand up and tell the truth about what happened with the back rooms of the Premier's office regarding the sale of B.C. Rail? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. M. de Jong: I have a quote also. It is the oft-quoted passage from a couple of years ago from the member for Nanaimo. "It is essential to the rule of law that the integrity of the judicial process not be interfered with. High-profile prosecutions have failed in the past because politicians felt compelled to make comments in public that were later deemed prejudicial." [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The member for Nanaimo's colleagues may choose to ignore the wisdom of that advice. We will not. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
J. Horgan: The issue at play today in this Legislature and right across this province is the integrity of the Premier's office itself. We've learned that Patrick Kinsella — the campaign manager in 2001 when the Liberals promised not to sell B.C. Rail, the campaign manager in 2005 after they had sold B.C. Rail — was in direct contract with Martyn Brown in the Premier's office, trying to salvage a deal with CN. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The question is: if Patrick Kinsella's the conductor and Martyn Brown's in the caboose, where was the Premier when all of this was going on? How can it be that his chief adviser, 10 feet away from his office, is working with CN to close a deal to sell a Crown asset, and the Premier won't answer to the people of British Columbia? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Simple question, government Members. Where's the integrity? When will the Premier be accountable to the people of B.C. and clear the air on this cover-up? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. M. de Jong: On the very day when the Supreme Court of British Columbia is in session considering matters relating to certain events, the member stands in this chamber in violation of all of the tenets that are supposed to guide proceedings in this chamber and, for nothing more than political purposes, chooses to ignore those principles. I think that speaks volumes about the desperation that exists on the opposition side and how little regard they have for something as basic as an independent judiciary. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
J. Horgan: Getting sermons from the minister of defence on integrity and accountability is absolutely laughable. If it wasn't so funny…. If it wasn't so serious, we wouldn't be in here today. We'd be out doing some of the people's business. Not so. They want to sit in here. They want to shield the Premier from the corruption. He should stand in this place and speak to British Columbians. It's hilarious. It's a joke. Integrity is a joke to every single member on that side of the House — every single member. The tracks go right through the Premier's…. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Interjections.
Mr. Speaker: Member, just take your seat for a second. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Members. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Minister. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Interjections.
Mr. Speaker: Members. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Continue, Member. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
J. Horgan: The Globe and Mail today, end of a column by Gary Mason, a reputable columnist here in British Columbia: "British Columbians deserve answers. The integrity of the Premier's office is at stake." The integrity of the Premier's office is at stake. It may be a joke to members on that side of the House, but the people of British Columbia deserve an answer. Why is it that friends and insiders are benefiting from government policy, not just across the board but right in the middle of the Premier's office? When will the Premier stand and be accountable? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. M. de Jong: One day the members opposite want to be in this chamber; the next they are complaining about being here. One day they are baying for a chance to go to the polls; the next day they're asking the government to postpone the election. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The matters to which members continue to refer are being considered by the Supreme Court of British Columbia. It is appropriate that they be considered by the Supreme Court of British Columbia. It is inappropriate for this chamber to interfere in those deliberations. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
R. Fleming: You know, it was only the other week that we learned for the first time that the Premier's friend, his campaign manager, his chief fundraiser, was being paid by B.C. Rail for a number of years — the [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
R. Fleming: You know, it was only the other week that we learned for the first time that the Premier's friend, his campaign manager, his chief fundraiser was being paid by B.C. Rail for a number of years, the years in question. This was new information. We asked questions about it in the House. We got no answers. Then came the news releases from B.C. Rail and from Mr. Kinsella's firm itself. The news releases said Mr. Kinsella only worked on the core review. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Well, it's clear it went farther than that. Now it's clear that Mr. Kinsella was the fixer on the privatization deal for B.C. Rail. He was the go-between guy for B.C. Rail, for CN Rail and for the Premier's office. So the question today is: what instruction did the Premier, through Martyn Brown, receive to "give support to Patrick Kinsella and CN Rail"? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. M. de Jong: It was actually also, as I recall, two weeks ago that defence counsel in a criminal trial in the courts of British Columbia commented specifically on the potential for prejudice to accrue as a result of comments made by politicians. The opposition may choose to play fast and loose with the fundamental principle of independence of the judiciary. We on this side of the House will not. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Mr. Speaker: Member has a supplemental. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
R. Fleming: There is widespread public concern that the deal to sell B.C. Rail was tainted right from the start, and now the public concern is about what the involvement of the Premier's office was through his friend Mr. Kinsella. We know from several years ago that the deal had problems to begin with because we had complaints lodged to this government from Burlington Northern, from CPR, from Omnitrax. They all pulled out of the process because they believed the Premier's office and Mr. Kinsella were working hand in glove with CN Rail and giving them a leg up in the deal. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
So my question for the government is: when will they stop stonewalling and come clean on Mr. Kinsella's role in the whole B.C. Rail deal? When will the Premier finally tell British Columbians about Mr. Kinsella's work with Mr. Brown to make the deal happen and sell off B.C. Rail? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. M. de Jong: If the question from the hon. member is: when will this government abandon the principle of an independent judiciary? the answer is never. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
L. Krog: Well, it's just a bit rich in this House for the Government House Leader to talk about principle when it was this government that broke its major campaign promise not to sell B.C. Rail. As that member well knows, the law is both a shield and a sword, and they've stretched that little shield a little too far. Sub judice does not apply to every tiny aspect of information available to the public about B.C. Rail. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
What we know today is that the major backroom boy of the Liberal party was working both sides of the track on this one. So my question to that member is, if he's got an answer, let him stand in this House today and explain why is it that the taxpayers of British Columbia paid $297,000 to Mr. Kinsella and his company, and why was CN paying Mr. Kinsella, and what did they get for it, and what did the Liberal Party get out of it? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. M. de Jong: On this day when this Hon. member of the House stands up, a member of the bar, and poses these questions and makes these allegations, I am curious how he would reconcile his behaviour and his commentary with what he himself said just a few years ago about the impropriety, about the inappropriateness of putting judicial proceedings at risk by commenting for no other reason than political convenience. He has chosen to do it. We will not. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Mr. Speaker: Member has a supplemental. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
L. Krog: [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Mr. Speaker: Member has a supplemental. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
L. Krog: I can tell this member that I'm acutely aware of my responsibilities as a member of the bar. I wonder if that member's acutely aware of his responsibility to the people of British Columbia. He swore an oath, as did every member of this chamber, to uphold the law, to do the right thing by the people who elected us to this chamber. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I want to hear today from that member, from someone in this government: why was this deal tainted from the start, what was the political motivation, what did the Premier's office do in this deal, and why can't the people of British Columbia have an honest answer for once in this chamber? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. M. de Jong: That oath and that commitment included and includes a commitment to ensure that the independence of the judicial process is respected. That is a commitment that those of us who sit on this side of the House believe applies 365 days of the year. That is a commitment and a principle that we do not shed merely because it might be politically convenient to do so and an opportunity to score political points. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
I think the discussion that has taken place today, that has taken place in this chamber over the past number of weeks, speaks volumes for which group of political leaders will stand by the principles that are at the root of our democratic process. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
LOBBYIST ACTIVITIES OF
PATRICK KINSELLA
N. Macdonald: We see it again today. We have a Premier that hides from accountability when the Premier's office is stained by what is going on. There is no question that that's how people see it. The Attorney General is gagged, and instead we come here, and we hear again and again a refusal to talk about something that is of core importance. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The people of British Columbia deserve to know how Patrick Kinsella, the B.C. Liberal campaign manager in 2001 and 2005, made hundreds of thousands of dollars as a lobbyist for B.C. Rail and apparently with using his direct access to Martyn Brown. The Premier's office is…. Its integrity is questioned. We need to know: when will the people of British Columbia get the answers they deserve on this issue? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. M. de Jong: I guess, according to the member, we don't need courts. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Interjections.
Mr. Speaker: Members. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. M. de Jong: Another, perhaps, policy pronouncement from the opposition. Because why would we? The hon. member and his colleagues are apparently well equipped to act as judge, jury, executioner if necessary. The principle of judicial independence requires certain things. One of those things is that we respect that process. That's what we're doing, and we'll continue to do it, notwithstanding the kind of irresponsible questioning we're getting from the opposition. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
N. Macdonald: Let's just understand the history here. Patrick Kinsella, in 2001, sat down and put together the New Era document. All the members that were there and ran in 2001 ran on those promises. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
We are well familiar with the promise not to sell B.C. Rail, and we are well familiar with the fact that as soon as that promise was made, you have Mr. Kinsella and the Premier's office intending to do the exact opposite and sell it. The same sits with B.C. Hydro and the secret deal to Accenture. You have a promise and Mr. Kinsella there breaking that promise as a lobbyist. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
It's the same with our rivers, the same with gambling, the same with alcohol. All of those point to a culture of corruption that needs explanation from this government to the people of British Columbia. A culture of corruption. When [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
that needs explanation from this government to the people of British Columbia. When are British Columbians going to get the answers that they deserve? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. M. de Jong: Well, Mr. Speaker, clearly the member is in the wrong venue. He should ask the member for Nanaimo for his robes and get over to the courtroom. He seems so intent on interfering in that judicial process that maybe that's where he should take his arguments. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
He and his colleagues seem not to understand one basic fundamental principle — that we have courts with judges who are independent of the political process, independent of the executive branch, independent of the legislative branch. They are charged with the task of adjudicating matters that are in dispute. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The member may feel himself qualified to pass judgment and render a verdict. We aren't. We will not substitute. We will not interfere. We will respect the independence of the judiciary. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
ROLE OF PATRICK KINSELLA AND
PREMIER'S OFFICE IN B.C. RAIL SALE
B. Ralston: We are raising a serious question that concerns the very integrity of the highest office in this province, the Office of the Premier. The question is a very simple one. What did the Premier tell his political chief of staff, Martyn Brown, to tell his campaign manager, Patrick Kinsella, about the CN bid for B.C. Rail? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. M. de Jong: The matters referred to by the member are before the courts. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Mr. Speaker: Member has a supplemental. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
ROLE OF PATRICK KINSELLA IN
ACCENTURE CONTRACT
B. Ralston: Will the member opposite explain: what was the respective role of Martyn Brown in the Premier's office and Mr. Kinsella in the Accenture deal, the awarding of a contract of $1.4 billion to Accenture and the sale of one-third of the operations of B.C. Hydro? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. M. de Jong: I'll take the question on notice. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
ROLE OF PATRICK KINSELLA AND
PREMIER'S OFFICE IN B.C. RAIL SALE
S. Simpson: Hon. Speaker, the matters that are before the courts will be dealt with by Justice Bennett there. The matter that is before…. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Interjections.
Mr. Speaker: Members. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Take your seat. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Members. Members. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Continue, Member. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
S. Simpson: The matter that is before this chamber is the integrity of the Premier's office, the highest office in this.… We know that the Premier's chief adviser, Mr. Kinsella, is now up to his knees in this. We now know from today that Martyn Brown was a key adviser on this. We have to believe the Premier knew about this. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
So the question to the government is this. If this government cares one whit about its integrity, if it cares one whit about the integrity of the Premier's office, it will tell us today: what was the role of the Premier's office? What was the role of Martyn Brown, and what was the role of Patrick Kinsella? Anything less is more cover-up by the Liberals, trying to cover up their past. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. M. de Jong: The member may choose to be selective about what aspects of an independent judiciary he chooses to respect. I will not. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. M. de Jong: The member may choose to be selective about what aspects of an independent judiciary he chooses to respect. I will not. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
S. Simpson: I do have a supplemental. Last time I checked, the Premier wasn't under investigation by the courts, unless somebody over there wants to tell us different. This is about the Premier's office. This is about the conduct of the government. You've been hiding and hiding from this, hiding behind this court case, refusing to talk to British Columbians. It's time for some honesty on that side — just once, an honest statement, an honest answer. This borders on corruption. Where is it? Answer the question. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Mr. Speaker: Member. Member. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Interjections.
Mr. Speaker: Members. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Member, I'm not going to allow those statements again. Will you please withdraw those words that you just said. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
S. Simpson: I withdraw. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
J. Kwan: The issue of integrity and public trust may not matter very much on the government side but it matters very much to British Columbians. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Interjections.
Mr. Speaker: Members. Members. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Continue, member. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
J. Kwan: British Columbians deserve answers. The integrity and trust of the Premier and the Premier's office is in question. Today we learned that the Premier's friend, an insider, campaign manager for the Liberal Party, Patrick Kinsella, was working with the Premier's chief of staff, Martyn Brown, to assist CN in this corrupt deal. What instructions from the Premier did Martyn Brown give to Patrick Kinsella? Will the government now tell British Columbians the real truth? [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. M. de Jong: I realize that it may be inconvenient for the opposition, an opposition increasingly desperate at this point in time, to await the proper unfolding of a judicial proceeding. I realize that that may not fit within… [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Interjections.
Mr. Speaker: Members. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. M. de Jong: …the narrow scope of their political agenda. But respect for concepts and principles as basic as an independent judiciary require us to do just that, and await the outcome of a trial that is before the Supreme Court of British Columbia, and that's what we intend to do. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
J. Kwan: What's inconvenient is for this government to tell the truth to British Columbians on what exactly happened between Patrick Kinsella, Martyn Brown and the Premier and the CN-B.C. Rail deal. That's exactly what's inconvenient. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
The fact is that the integrity and public trust of the Premier's office, of this government and of the Premier ought to be paramount. That should be the guiding principle this government should use to lead their answers. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Let me just quote again, Mr. Speaker. "Patrick Kinsella received a call from David McLean, who in essence told him the deal was at risk. Anything they could do would be appreciated in CN's view. Needed now. Kinsella talking to Martyn for immediate support." That's a direct quote. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
What support was given to CN through Patrick Kinsella? Tell this House and tell British Columbians the truth. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
Hon. M. de Jong: The opposition's persistence in pursuing this line of inappropriate questioning is surpassed only by the vigour with which we on this side of the House will defend the principle of an independent judiciary. [DRAFT TRANSCRIPT ONLY]
[End of question period.]
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